Rebuilding Christian America? Adriel Sanchez Responds to Tucker Carlson and Andrew Isker

This transcript has been lightly edited from an automated transcription for clarity and readability. While we've worked to preserve each speaker's words faithfully, errors may remain.

1. 00:00

   Adriel Sanchez

   If we need to retreat from the world in order to regain some power before the Word of God can really be effective, then we have a low view of the means of grace. The church in the United States doesn’t need frustrated men moving to the woods in order to escape sinners while teaching themselves how to hunt and fish with their friends. That sounds like a great vacation, but not a way of being faithful to the Great Commission. The world needs Christians whose confidence is in God’s Word and who know that living in a blue state doesn’t keep that Word from accomplishing its purposes. Men and women who, like Jesus, aren’t waiting for sinners to destroy themselves, but pursue them with conviction and compassion. Additionally, if you think that moving to a conservative enclave is a way of escaping the evils of the world, I have news for you. There are battles Christians have to fight in the Bible Belt that they don’t have to fight in California or Minnesota. The problem with Christian nationalism, at least as it’s described here, is that it’s more of a way of recovering and preserving some kind of American dream, the old American dream, than it is actually a strategy for reaching the nation or the lost.

2. 01:17

   Adriel Sanchez

   Tucker Carlson interviewed former Minnesota pastor Andrew Isker on why he chose to leave his church and move to Tennessee to help build a new town centered around American values. So Isker is a part of a growing movement of people leaving blue states, progressive states, in search of greener pastures, right? Places like Idaho, Texas, Tennessee. And Isker is a proud Christian nationalist. He actually co-wrote a book called Christian Nationalism: A Biblical Guide for Taking Dominion and Discipling the Nations. So before I jump into the critique, I want to highlight a handful of things I appreciated about the video. Number one, Andrew Isker’s mustache. You have to give honor where honor is due, and admittedly, the man can grow a mustache. Number two, you can’t knock a guy for wanting to do what he believes is best for his family.

3. 02:05

   Adriel Sanchez

   He concluded that his family was in jeopardy there in Minnesota, that he ultimately couldn’t continue living there because of the state’s progressive agenda. Now, living in California, I actually disagree with him as far as how severe the threat is, but I recognize that leaving his home and the home of his ancestors must have been very difficult. I can appreciate the decision, even if I disagree with some of the underlying motives. If you are a Christian living in Minnesota or California and you’re discouraged, you’re tempted to move, don’t hear me as trying to shame you. It may be the best decision for you and your family. Don’t think of this decision, though, in terms of faithfulness to God—“I’m going because I’m being faithful to God”—as much as it’s a question of wisdom: general Christian wisdom and general Christian liberty as well.

4. 02:52

   Adriel Sanchez

   Faithfulness to God isn’t determined by who your governor is, but who you are. You can be a faithful follower of Jesus in California and an unfaithful follower of Jesus somewhere else. The third thing I really appreciated was the fact that Andrew is a zealous guy, right? He’s deeply concerned about the evil that exists in the world. And I think we all should be. Peter said, as he’s writing in 2 Peter, that while Lot lived in Sodom, his righteous soul was tormented by the things he saw and heard. The question is, how should we as Christians respond to the evil in the world? Do we need to separate ourselves from the world and build Christian enclaves? Is that what the apostles did? Let me start by saying, if Isker’s discipleship strategy is Christian nationalism out of the horse’s mouth, right? If this is the real-deal definition of Christian nationalism, then I think it should be rejected by Christians for looking nothing like the approach that the disciples had for discipling the nations. What Isker argues for and is effectively doing is gathering a group of people who share the same beliefs about politics, Jesus, and America. Their goal is to recreate a kind of idealistic old America.

5. 04:04

   Adriel Sanchez

   Of course, we hope they don’t revive everything about old America. Now, I’m not saying that there isn’t an appeal to this for many people. Who doesn’t want to surround themselves with people who look and think just like them? Wouldn’t life be so much easier if we didn’t have to argue about politics or culture or Jesus? And this is precisely what Isker hopes to build. Listen to what he says.

6. Adriel Sanchez

   [Clip from The Tucker Carlson Show begins]

7. 04:24

   Andrew Isker

   It’s built for people to enjoy actual life, right? For people to congregate in the same area where they hold similar values, right? You don’t want to live in a place where everybody hates you and hates what you think and hates that you love Donald Trump, you love your country, you love your God.

8. 04:45

   Tucker Carlson

   I’ve done that.

9. 04:47

   Andrew Isker

   You don’t want that. No. And tons of people, it was like, “Oh, wouldn’t it be great if I had neighbors that we pretty much agreed on everything?” We agree on everything politically, culturally, all of that. And then you don’t even have to talk about it. It’s just have normal life together. Your kids can play with their kids and grow up together. That’s the kind of thing that’s being built there in Tennessee.

10. Andrew Isker

    [Clip ends]

11. 05:13

    Adriel Sanchez

    So first, and with all due respect, I think it’s delusional to think that if you live in a blue state, everyone around you hates you. That’s an exaggeration. I live in a very progressive neighborhood in San Diego, and each of my neighbors is different, right? If you live in a place like San Diego or Minnesota and you think, “Everyone around me hates me,” you never go outside, then the reality is what you’re fleeing from is an illusion. Get to know your neighbors. Have conversations with them. The other thing we need to ask is, is this normal life Isker talks about what Christians are called to strive for? Think about it for just a second. Was this the attitude that caused the Christian gospel to spread from Jerusalem to Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth? The answer is no. Far from being a strategy for discipling the nations, this approach to the Great Commission—retreat, surround yourself with friends, and live a good life, a happy life—is a strategy for cultural disengagement.

12. 06:13

    Adriel Sanchez

    Sure, disillusioned people who already agree with you on most things can sign up to be a part of your town, but is that really following the example of Christ? What would it have been like for Jesus to flee from Judea and say, “Tired of the religious corruption in Jerusalem and the sexual immorality of Rome, come join my club in the desert”? There was already a group that was doing that in the first century. They were called the Essenes. Essentially, they were a religious community that fled to the wilderness in order to live separately. But that wasn’t the strategy of Jesus or the apostles after him. Now, maybe you’re thinking, “Look, they’re not really trying to build some sort of parallel Christian enclave that’s just waiting for the world to self-destruct, after which they can come in, sweep up the rubble, and take control. Really? I mean, that’s crazy, Adriel.” Well, here’s how Isker and Torba put it in their book.

13. 07:03

    Adriel Sanchez

    “Our primary goal is to build a parallel Christian society, economy, and infrastructure, which will fill the vacuum of the failed secular state when it falls. We will build back better, but this time on the firm foundation of our faith in Jesus Christ. We will do this by exiting the secular system almost entirely, while at the same time exerting our influence to be the salt and light the nation needs.” Christian Nationalism, page 20. But the church can’t effectively be the salt of the earth while abandoning common society. Paul told the Corinthians, “I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people, not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.” 1 Corinthians 5:9–10. It’s really interesting.

14. 07:58

    Adriel Sanchez

    Compare Isker’s primary goal with the testimony of the earliest Christians. The irony is that Torba and Isker refer to their parallel community as an ark of salvation, overlooking the fact that this title was historically reserved for the church throughout the world. The true parallel community is the visible church, which the Westminster Confession of Faith calls the kingdom of God. This church exists not just for the parts of the world it likes, our political allies and friends. To take Christians out of the world is to take the soul out of the body. It’s a way of making sure the world perishes. Friends, it was a God-inspired love for the world that compelled Christians throughout the Roman Empire to lay down their lives for neighbors who were suffering with the plague. Through their obedience, God brought about the transformation of the empire.

15. 08:52

    Adriel Sanchez

    That would not have happened if the early Christians had adopted a mindset of flee and build. St. Augustine wrote, “But this is true love, that while holding fast to the truth, we may live justly and therefore may despise everything mortal for the sake of the love of men, whereby we wish them to live justly.” If you really want a Christian nation, it’s not going to happen by gathering a community of your online friends to disengage from actual evangelism and follow you to an enclave in Idaho or Texas. And maybe again, you’re thinking, “That’s not what they’re doing. They’re not just trying to build a church or a city made up of their Twitter friends. Come on.” Well, again, listen to what Isker says.

16. Adriel Sanchez

    [Clip from The Tucker Carlson Show begins]

17. 09:35

    Tucker Carlson

    It’s time for sincere Christians to be in fellowship with each other, like, physically.

18. 09:41

    Andrew Isker

    Yeah, yeah. Especially because you see sort of online communities where people are like, “Oh, I like this pastor. I like the sermons that he preaches,” or “I agree with this theology and I’m being formed and shaped.” And you band into groups online where you sort of self-sort, and there are these massive communities on the internet. It’s like, “Well, what if we took this digital community that exists, and what if we made it in real life?”

19. Andrew Isker

    [Clip ends]

20. 10:14

    Adriel Sanchez

    One problem with making your online community your real-life community is that it doesn’t challenge you to love anyone who is different from you. The result of this is political affinity groups that are loosely religious. Their focus is on reclaiming lost cultural power with the strategy of retreating from places that are difficult to do ministry in order to build something lasting through which they will be able to take dominion of their non-Christian neighbors without actually having to get to know them. Ironically, this is supposed to be postmillennial optimism. There’s a lengthy section in the interview with Tucker where Isker talks about the negative effects of dispensational eschatology. Basically, he says, if you live thinking that Jesus can come back at any moment, you’re not going to plant or build anything. And yet so much of the rhetoric that drives these groups sounds defeatist. “We’re outnumbered.

21. 11:07

    Adriel Sanchez

    “The gospel can’t get traction in hostile blue states. We need to go somewhere people aren’t going to make fun of us for liking Donald Trump or going to church. We’re going to retreat and build.” This isn’t an optimistic Christianity. It’s a pessimistic view of God’s Word and Spirit. If we need to retreat from the world in order to regain some power before the Word of God can really be effective, then we have a low view of the means of grace. The church in the United States doesn’t need frustrated men moving to the woods in order to escape sinners while teaching themselves how to hunt and fish with their friends. That sounds like a great vacation, but not a way of being faithful to the Great Commission.

22. 11:48

    Adriel Sanchez

    The world needs Christians whose confidence is in God’s Word and who know that living in a blue state doesn’t keep that Word from accomplishing its purposes. Men and women who, like Jesus, aren’t waiting for sinners to destroy themselves, but pursue them with conviction and compassion. Additionally, if you think that moving to a conservative enclave is a way of escaping the evils of the world, I have news for you. There are battles Christians have to fight in the Bible Belt that they don’t have to fight in California or Minnesota. The problem with Christian nationalism, at least as it’s described here, is that it’s more of a way of recovering and preserving some kind of American dream, the old American dream, than it is actually a strategy for reaching the nation or the lost. Paul said—this is from 1 Corinthians—“For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant of all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law, though not being myself under the law, that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law, not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ, that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.” Now, Paul added a little bit later, “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” Now, despite what I’m saying, I know that these ideas are popular.

23. 13:28

    Adriel Sanchez

    Isker’s being interviewed by Tucker Carlson, right? Why is there such a draw? Why is there such an attraction? A couple of times in the video, it’s interesting, Isker criticizes the church growth movement, right? How wishy-washy the doctrine has become in many evangelical churches. “We just want to get people through the doors.” He kept repeating that. And I’m with him. I agree that we need more sound doctrine, more Bible teaching. But do you know what one of the key principles of the church growth movement was? It was called the homogeneous unit principle. Essentially, it said, if you want to build a big church, you need to cater to people’s cultural preferences. You need to speak to their heart, their heart language.

24. 14:11

    Adriel Sanchez

    Build a church that exists for a niche demographic and meets their needs. Isker doesn’t realize that as much as he laments the seeker sensitivity of the church growth movement, he has inherited and applied some of its key principles on a grander scale than that of megachurch pastors. “Let’s build something for, quote unquote, heritage Americans who are tired of the immigrants flooding the country.” That’s going to appeal to a lot of people. You’re going to be able to build something, no doubt. I’m not so sure if building it will require the work of the Holy Spirit, though. The kingdom that Jesus is building isn’t just for Jews or Gentiles. It’s not a church that caters to cultural preferences per se, nor is it a church where I get to pick who my brothers and sisters are.

25. 14:56

    Adriel Sanchez

    Congregation of my Twitter allies. It’s a church that can thrive even in the midst of a negative world, not because it’s viewed positively by the world or by non-Christians, but because the Word which the church faithfully proclaims is powerful and efficacious by the Holy Spirit. Our hope isn’t in the openness of our neighbors, how conservative they are, but in the power of God to raise the dead to life. So, to those searching for a taste of the new creation in Tennessee or elsewhere, truly I wish you the best. But don’t pitch it as a valiant effort to take dominion of the world while at the same time simultaneously trying to avoid as much of it as you possibly can. Had the Son of God and the earliest Christian disciples adopted that approach, there would be no Christianity as we know it.