How 20 Years of Touring Tested My Faith – Matt Greiner

This transcript has been lightly edited from an automated transcription for clarity and readability. While we've worked to preserve each speaker's words faithfully, errors may remain.

1. 00:00

   Matt Greiner

   And we just went through that motion for years, signed to Solid State. That cemented that idea that we're a Christian band. The pretense in a question was, so as a Christian band? And it was like, well, we never really had a chance to say, well, wait a second, what does that even mean?

2. 00:16

   CALEB Wait

   Right. Yeah.

3. 00:18

   Matt Greiner

   We never really had deep conversations backstage about our faith. It was just like, we're moving. We like metal. We're playing together. We like our songs. People like us. That's tour. And then in 2012, we were in Australia and there was this— do you remember that movement Invisible Children?

4. 00:38

   CALEB Wait

   Yes, the nonprofit.

5. 00:40

   Matt Greiner

   The nonprofit, right? They had this thing where it was like, make a sign that says Kony wherever you are in the world and hold it up in front of something, right? So I was in Sydney and I was like, oh, I'm going to make a sign, hold it up in front of the Sydney Opera House, take a picture. Took the sign back. We played the show. Jake brought the sign out. We got booed.

6. 01:02

   CALEB Wait

   Wow.

7. 01:02

   Matt Greiner

   Never gotten booed before as a band.

8. 01:04

   CALEB Wait

   Oh my word.

9. 01:05

   Matt Greiner

   And it's a weird feeling. Like, we're not getting booed for our music. We're getting booed for this stance that at the time, because of the echo chamber I was in, didn't really seem controversial. It was like, well, of course—

10. 01:17

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

11. 01:17

    Matt Greiner

    —this is a good thing. But there were some nuances to the movement.

12. 01:21

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

13. 01:22

    Matt Greiner

    So we talked backstage: What are we going to do about this? What just happened? And we just unpeeled this onion that had been taking on layers for so many years. And I was like, what are we doing out here? Are we a Christian band? What's the purpose of our band? What do we want out of this?

14. 01:46

    CALEB Wait

    Well, I'm Caleb Wait. I am the director of content at Sola Media, and I'm honored today to be sitting with Matt Greiner, the drummer from August Burns Red. Thank you for allowing me to join you in the middle of your tour. Nice to meet you.

15. 01:59

    Matt Greiner

    Nice to meet you too. Thanks for having me.

16. 02:01

    CALEB Wait

    So we're going to be discussing the music industry generally and the space you and August Burns Red find yourselves in. We're going to talk about the tension of art, faith, public platforms, but also deconstruction, a variety of topics.

17. CALEB Wait

    To begin with, you've been touring and making music for over 20 years now as a band with major success in the industry. You have had multiple placements in the top 10 on the Billboard Top 200, amassed 600 million streams. So you have an established place in the music industry as a whole, but you're also an outspoken Christian. The band also has Dove Award nominations to prove that. So how do you see the band's placement kind of in the music industry? Because even though some might mark you as a Christian band or Christians within a band, it's not the type of music that's exactly playing in the background at Hobby Lobby, but you're also just established in the industry as a whole. How would you describe your place here?

18. 03:21

    Matt Greiner

    Well, thank you for the setup. Thanks for having me on here. I need to just start off by saying that I'm a big fan of some of the folks that you've interviewed. And so coming into this interview, I feel very humbled and totally out of place that I would be asked to be on this. So thank you for asking me.

19. 03:40

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah, absolutely.

20. 03:41

    Matt Greiner

    What we do on tour is hard to explain when you go beyond the, well, we play our songs that we wrote and we sign autographs and we do meet and greets. The other stuff is usually kept pretty private.

21. 03:57

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

22. 03:57

    Matt Greiner

    Just because it's hard. It's hard to explain what happens when you talk to someone at the barricade after you play and they are telling you, oh my gosh, this thing happened to me and I want to tell you all about it. And you're like, wait, wait, wait, what's your name? Like, I've never met you before. How do you explain that? And so I feel honored that I have a place in this conversation with the likes of the people that you've interviewed. But it's also not a traditional, like you said—

23. 04:24

    CALEB Wait

    Sure.

24. 04:24

    Matt Greiner

    —scenario where I'm like, well, here's the church that I preach at. Just so happens to be a lot of venues across the country, and it happens to be one-on-one and fairly private. So all that said, I started a band in 2003 because I loved heavy music. I was born and raised in a Christian home, and I saw someone play drums at church and was just like, oh my gosh, whatever that is, I want to do that.

25. 04:54

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

26. 04:54

    Matt Greiner

    It was in my blood before I even picked up a pair of sticks. And so I just picked up drumming and met these guys in this band, and we just were like, yeah, we like the same kind of music. And everyone in my homeschool group doesn't. It's like Dave Matthews Band was the most extreme thing.

27. 05:11

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

28. 05:11

    Matt Greiner

    So—

29. 05:12

    CALEB Wait

    My homeschool group, by the way, that would be the same story.

30. 05:15

    Matt Greiner

    Good. We have a lot in common. We didn't start the band because we were a ministry.

31. 05:22

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

32. 05:23

    Matt Greiner

    But there was something inside of me, because I was a Christian, that said, wait a second, God can use this thing—

33. 05:30

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

34. 05:31

    Matt Greiner

    —for his glory. And initially I thought all of us can have that same mission in mind. We all can work together to glorify God with this band and preach the gospel. And we just went through that motion for years, signed to Solid State, that cemented that idea that we're a Christian band. The pretense in a question was, so as a Christian band? And it was like, well, we never really had a chance to say, well, wait a second, what does that even mean?

35. 06:00

    CALEB Wait

    Right. Yeah.

36. 06:01

    Matt Greiner

    We never really had deep conversations backstage about our faith. It was just like, we're moving, we like metal, we're playing together, we like our songs, people like us. That's tour. And then in 2012, we were in Australia and there was this— do you remember that movement Invisible Children?

37. 06:22

    CALEB Wait

    Yes, the nonprofit.

38. 06:23

    Matt Greiner

    The nonprofit, right? They had this thing where it was like, make a sign that says Kony wherever you are in the world and hold it up in front of something.

39. 06:31

    CALEB Wait

    Right.

40. 06:31

    Matt Greiner

    So I was in Sydney and I was like, oh, I'm going to make a sign. Yeah, hold it up in front of the Sydney Opera House. Take a picture. Took the sign back. We played the show. Jake brought the sign out. We got booed.

41. 06:45

    CALEB Wait

    Wow.

42. 06:46

    Matt Greiner

    Never gotten booed before as a band.

43. 06:47

    CALEB Wait

    Oh my word.

44. 06:49

    Matt Greiner

    And it's a weird feeling. Like, we're not getting booed for our music. We're getting booed for this stance that at the time, because of the echo chamber I was in, didn't really seem controversial. It was like, well, of course—

45. 07:00

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

46. 07:00

    Matt Greiner

    —this is a good thing. But there were some nuances to the movement.

47. 07:04

    CALEB Wait

    Sure. Yeah.

48. 07:05

    Matt Greiner

    So we talked backstage: What are we gonna do about this? What just happened? And we just unpeeled this onion that had been taking on layers for so many years. And I was like, what are we doing out here? Are we a Christian band? What's the purpose of our band? What do we want out of this? And we dropped the Christian title and said, you know what, let's just be honest and say we are a business that wants to spread a positive message, do good through our music, and make excellent music, perform well at a high level.

49. 07:40

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

50. 07:41

    Matt Greiner

    And I walked away, I was like, oh man, I'm so frustrated right now. I had this idea that I wanted this band to be something, and it's not that. And I remember going back to the hotel with Jake, and we were both pretty upset and kind of feeling bad for ourselves.

51. 07:57

    CALEB Wait

    Sure.

52. 07:58

    Matt Greiner

    And it wasn't— I don't know, it was a couple days later, I think it was still on that tour, I started to feel just like, wow, I actually like this idea, this decision, because now I can talk to people about my faith on a personal level instead of it being this blanket statement that we're a Christian band. Which, by the way, we've never really been able to define what that even means.

53. 08:20

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

54. 08:21

    Matt Greiner

    So—

55. 08:21

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

56. 08:22

    Matt Greiner

    What I'll say is this: if there's a takeaway from this interview, it's probably this for me. When I face God one day, he knows my heart and he knows what my intentions are and my motives are, obviously. And I would rather him say, “Why didn't you use my name, in this case, for your band?” than “How dare you? How dare you use my name to further your business or to look good in front of people or to appease somebody?”

57. 08:52

    CALEB Wait

    Sure.

58. 08:53

    Matt Greiner

    That's the conclusion I came to after we dropped the title and we were just honest about what we're doing.

59. 08:58

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah, yeah. But at the same time, and here's what I find so interesting about you guys, you and Jake especially are still outspoken Christians. It's nothing you shy away from, even though you're not putting Jesus fish bumper stickers on all the things. This goes back to— see, I kind of grew up in this scene, and I've been a fan of yours since high school. And I remember in that time in the scene, this scene kind of blew up in the early 2000s, kind of after some of the fundamentalism of the '90s, where it was more anti-culture, very much, foosball's the devil, and let's kind of— being suspicious and fearful of things. And then in the early 2000s, there seemed to be kind of a shift in evangelical culture, or just kind of youth group culture, where it was more youth groups leaning into more creative things.

60. 10:01

    Matt Greiner

    Right.

61. 10:01

    CALEB Wait

    And there was so many— when this scene started out, there was so many shows just at churches—

62. 10:06

    Matt Greiner

    Yeah.

63. 10:07

    CALEB Wait

    —with Christian bands—

64. 10:08

    Matt Greiner

    Oh, they were awesome.

65. 10:09

    CALEB Wait

    —non-Christian bands, and it was crazy and messy. I think the zeal was really high. The maturity, though, was fairly— it was low. It was a bit immature. I remember in 2009, I had a low view of the church. I was a kid, but I looked up to public spiritual figures, a band, and would think— I kind of outsourced my spiritual mentorship to people like you to be like, that's what it means to be about Jesus. And I remember seeing you guys in 2009. I don't know what I was expecting, if it was like an altar call kind of a thing, but I remember being 16 and being a little irritated that there wasn't enough preaching. Right. Like, to me, I thought music was secondary and the platform to spread a certain message was the primary thing, and therefore anyone who's a Christian, anyone in a band needs to be doing that in such a forthright way.

66. CALEB Wait

    I mean, as I grew older, I started to appreciate the particular mission of the church, the calling of ordained ministers, and what they're called to do in their vocation in ministry. And then I also grew as I learned— I went to seminary, I learned about things like common grace and started to learn that God is calling all of us in our various vocations, even outside the church, to do good work, excellent work, to pursue justice, to do common things that can glorify God. But it's a way of serving your neighbor that isn't just only a kind of a Trojan horse for evangelism, as it were.

67. CALEB Wait

    You talked about some of this, of how you balance that creative tension between art, music, the fact that this is a business, but also the fact that you don't shy away from the fact of, yeah, I'm a Christian. I talk about it. I talk with people every night if they ask me a question. How do you navigate some of the creative tension there? I mean, you're the drummer, Jake is the vocalist, also an outspoken Christian. Do you guys think about that?

68. 12:37

    Matt Greiner

    Oh yeah.

69. 12:37

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

70. 12:38

    Matt Greiner

    Yeah, what you just said resonates a lot with my childhood too, actually. Like, going to a show and being like, why aren't they using this platform?

71. 12:47

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah, yeah.

72. 12:50

    Matt Greiner

    I think God gave me this opportunity for me because I needed to know how judgmental I was. Hearing you talk about the way I was raised, it's like a mirror to me. And I'm sitting here thinking, oh my gosh, thank God I had this band to show me how so many other people live their lives around the world.

73. 13:14

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

74. 13:14

    Matt Greiner

    So that I can understand that I don't deserve salvation. Like, I just— I don't. And I think growing up the way I did, for whatever reason, maybe it was just always me being messed up, I needed help figuring this out, but I needed to be humbled knowing that the person I'm talking to might believe something completely different or nothing at all.

75. 13:37

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

76. 13:37

    Matt Greiner

    And they're a way better dad than me or husband than me or boss than me or coworker than me. It has nothing to do with how good you are at the thing. It has to do with the fact that you realize you don't deserve this and you can't believe that there's a God who knows you and loves you.

77. 13:57

    CALEB Wait

    Hmm.

78. 13:57

    Matt Greiner

    Those two things are true. Like Tim Keller used to say— I love how he used to talk about salvation to a secular culture. That's what I really liked about Keller, was that he would preach in New York City, and I felt so alone on tour compared to just going home and going to my church where it felt like a bubble. Like, you guys don't understand, this is easy to talk about Jesus here. Try going on tour.

79. 14:23

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

80. 14:23

    Matt Greiner

    And then I look at Dr. Keller, I read his books, I'm like, well, he is actually in it with people, and he puts himself in the pew with you doubting the things that he's preaching. And so he used to talk about this idea of, God knows you and he loves you. And the reason that's important— that's the reason it's important for me is if he knows me but he doesn't love me, it's hell.

81. 14:46

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

82. 14:47

    Matt Greiner

    But if he loves me and doesn't know me, it's superficial.

83. 14:50

    CALEB Wait

    Hmm.

84. 14:51

    Matt Greiner

    But if it's both, it's the reason you wake up in the morning and you have this bounce in your step knowing that it's all going to be okay. And that's what I've learned being in this band for 20 years. It's that, man, how in the world does God know me and love me? And man, if I can tell people about that, if I can play drums for his glory, if people come up to me and they want prayer and they want to talk about stuff, oh my gosh, absolutely. But just know it's not me, because I am not qualified to be someone who you can look up to and say, yeah, that guy's really something.

85. 15:27

    CALEB Wait

    Sure.

86. 15:28

    Matt Greiner

    And I think I needed that humility that this band has brought me by showing me how many wonderful people there are in different cultures and religions around the world.

87. 15:38

    CALEB Wait

    Yeah.

88. 15:39

    Matt Greiner

    And absolutely, there is a boldness. I have actually talked to my wife about this. On this tour in particular, there is something happening in our country, both for two reasons. One, I am being told to be more bold, and two, I am hearing people be more bold.

89. 15:56

    CALEB Wait

    Wow!

90. 15:57

    Matt Greiner

    People are less scared to talk about what they really think. And they're more excited to ask me what I really think, and they're okay with the answer. And so I show up to the barricade and I have to sort of remind myself, okay, switch gears. You just played metal for an hour. You're soaked. Jump down the barricade. God, what do you want to do tonight? Like, all for you. Use me.

91. 16:20

    CALEB Wait

    I want to switch to talk about music broadly here. It seems to me that for most secular people, music is one of the closest things they have to something sacred, or something that feels sacred.

92. 16:34

    Matt Greiner

    Right.

93. 16:35

    CALEB Wait

    And it becomes one of the only things kind of you can really experience that cuts through anxiety, ruminating, spiraling thoughts, and meets you really where you're at.

94. 16:48

    Matt Greiner

    Right.

95. 16:48

    CALEB Wait

    And helps alleviate maybe what you're going through. Do you think people, as you meet them in these very raw experiences after a show— do you think people are looking for freedom through music? In what ways is that good, but in what ways do you think people maybe expect too much from music? What do you think is missing when people look to it kind of for trying to find that sacred thing, that deepest meaning—

96. 17:20

    Matt Greiner

    Yeah.

97. 17:21

    CALEB Wait

    —in life?

98. 17:22

    Matt Greiner

    Yeah, that's a great question. I think that we want to find something that makes us feel alive.

99. 17:34

    CALEB Wait

    Hmm.

100. 17:35

     Matt Greiner

     And if you're in a marriage where you just feel dead, if you're in a job that makes you feel bored out of your mind, if the days just kind of blend together, you're looking for that thing that just makes your heart beat faster, no matter what that is. It's a drug, it's a band, it's meeting someone famous, it's a relationship. And so I think obviously, we're five guys playing music on stage together. We know that there's no rabbit in the hat. There's nothing super fancy about what we're doing. But I think there is really something special about music. For us, it's like we see people's tattoos at our meet and greets, lyrics that I wrote in my bedroom when I was 18.

101. 18:29

     CALEB Wait

     Yeah.

102. 18:30

     Matt Greiner

     It's like, all right, that line is not that cool. Like, if you wrote that and you weren't in a band, and no one's gonna be like, wow, it's really profound. But because it's in that song that you listen to after you broke up with your high school sweetheart— it's a very meaningful thing. Yeah. It takes you somewhere and you identify with it. And I think there's this culture, at least in metal, that's very special. Like, you identify with this underground culture, this metal culture.

103. Matt Greiner

     We used to play shows in churches. Only so many people knew about those shows. You'd see the flyer, you'd go, you'd be like, oh, did you hear about that? And you knew that most people had never heard of this band, and you're wearing their t-shirt and people are asking you, who is that?

104. 19:17

     CALEB Wait

     Yeah.

105. 19:17

     Matt Greiner

     A very special thing for you. And I think we get to be a part of that now for 20-some years and seeing it carry out. I'm now teaching people's kids how to play drums instead of teaching them.

106. 19:29

     CALEB Wait

     Wow.

107. 19:30

     Matt Greiner

     And it's now a familial thing, right? Where it's not just the dad, it's like, oh, I'm bringing my two kids and my wife's here too. This is a really special night for us. I think that— I grew up going to monster trucks. My mom, for whatever reason, was just like, monster trucks are awesome. We're going to go to the race. That was a very cool thing for our family, going to see NASCAR— or not see races, but watch them on TV. There's this whole culture inside of what we do that it's really special for people, and it's never going to deliver what you want if what you want is ultimate freedom or ultimate joy.

108. 20:12

     CALEB Wait

     Yeah.

109. 20:13

     Matt Greiner

     And of course, where does that come from? I believe as a Christian, joy comes from knowing that you're loved and accepted. And ultimately, that comes from Jesus. It comes in really unique ways from— I just got off the phone with my daughter, who's two and a half years old. We were FaceTiming. Not sure how it's working on tour. We did it last night and she woke up this morning really upset that I wasn't home. We shouldn't do this again. We tried it again tonight. “Daddy, I love you. You're my daddy.” I could drop all the sticks in the world tonight at the show and it's like, it's going to be okay. And that's like one sliver of how much I want to understand how great God is, how much he knows me, and how much he loves me.

110. 21:01

     CALEB Wait

     Hmm. Now, as you've been doing this for 20 years, you've seen peers, you've seen other bands kind of navigate the same dynamics you guys have. Are we a Christian band? What does that mean? Are we Christians in a band? And you've seen those in your space walk away from the faith over time. And for some, it's a quiet degradation. For others, it's more of a public deconstruction and rebuttal of their former beliefs.

111. CALEB Wait

     [~21:29] MATT GREINER - Yeah.

112. CALEB Wait

     [~21:30] CALEB Wait - Do you think, as you've reflected on those stories, seen them— do you think this is simply a natural outcome of kind of just what happens when you are kids in a youth group who get a deal to make a record and go on tour and see the world, and they're like, what the heck do I know about the meaning of life?

113. 21:57

     Matt Greiner

     Mm-hmm.

114. 21:58

     CALEB Wait

     Or do you think there is something deeper going on, kind of about the peculiar pressures and pain points of having a platform, living life on the road, in public? Are there unique pressures there that you see as a part of these stories of where folks have walked away?

115. 22:20

     Matt Greiner

     I would love to hear your answer to that question, because that is a great question. And what I hear you saying is, would this person have made the same decision if they were a landscaper? Because this is a unique world we're in. It's not good for your brain to be told you're awesome all the time.

116. 22:40

     CALEB Wait

     All the time.

117. 22:40

     Matt Greiner

     It's really bad for your brain, and you see it affect people in different ways. And man, that's a really fantastic question. I'll give you my answer and then I'd love to hear yours. I could be wrong in this, but I think part of me thinks that God's plan, being a perfect plan, wins out in the end, and we just won't understand why certain things happened. In my past, there have been things that have happened. I'm like, why? I'm sure the same for you. But yet I still trust God's plan. And so I try not to look at things as, this person knew Jesus and then they walked away, and that's a conclusive—

118. 23:19

     CALEB Wait

     Sure, the end of the story.

119. 23:21

     Matt Greiner

     Exactly. Try not to do that. It's hard not to do, but I try not to do it because you just never know. And I'd like to think that if you're teachable, eventually you'll get a chance to say yes to Jesus, or ultimately you're so hardened that you say no forever, and your life's sort of going in one direction or the other. I think that for someone who just is like, I'm done with this—

120. 23:46

     CALEB Wait

     Yeah.

121. 23:48

     Matt Greiner

     Maybe they didn't really know Jesus the way that you'd have to know Jesus to say, there's no way I could ever walk away from this.

122. 23:57

     CALEB Wait

     Hmm.

123. 23:58

     Matt Greiner

     I don't know. I know for me personally, I was raised in a home and taught something, and it wasn't real to me until it was tested. And so the testing and rubbing shoulders with these guys who are smoking weed, doing drugs, drinking too much, part like [unclear]— all that stuff was like, oh boy, better stay away. It's almost like they were contagious, like you were going to get sick and you better not get too close or else.

124. 24:24

     CALEB Wait

     Sure.

125. 24:24

     Matt Greiner

     And for me it was, oh my gosh, I am so judgmental that when this person goes and makes this decision to do this thing, that I'm sitting here going, ha, look at me.

126. 24:36

     CALEB Wait

     Thank God I'm not like them.

127. 24:37

     Matt Greiner

     Yeah, thank God I'm not like them. And one day I was in Amsterdam doing this back in 2008 or something, and I wrote a lyric about it. I was just like, man, look at me, the golden boy, staying back, doing the right stuff. And I read this back, and I was so grossed out by myself. I'm like, this is really where I'm at? That is disgusting. I got a real look at myself, and that was an important moment for me. That's going back to the first point I made about how this band's been really good for me personally.

128. 25:04

     CALEB Wait

     Mm-hmm.

129. 25:05

     Matt Greiner

     I think that being in this band has been a good test for me so that I can see exactly what I believe and why I believe it. And instead of it being, oh my gosh, you're going to go off and make all these decisions and you're going to walk away from God, it's actually done the inverse. What do you think about it?

130. 25:25

     CALEB Wait

     Yeah, well, man, there's so much I think I could say. I don't know, right? There's no definitive answer in the sense of— thank God I'm not God, and in his providence, he—

131. 25:37

     Matt Greiner

     Very, very true.

132. 25:38

     CALEB Wait

     He knows us and he knows all of our end, and so I trust and rest in his providence, his care, that all he does in the end is good, is good because he is good. So I think if I were to just reflect on trends or life or just dynamics that I've seen amongst friends, or as I see public figures walk away and deconstruct— hmm. There's a few things that come to mind.

133. CALEB Wait

     I would say, I think in American evangelicalism, if you study history, if you look at the culture of that world as a whole, you realize it's pretty unique. You realize that throughout the history of the church, this is not always how we have done things. And so I think in America, we have this long history kind of bent towards, what is the true Christian life? Well, it kind of comes out of maybe the revivalism in the Second Great Awakening. The First Great Awakening, in the early 19th century— 18th century— was kind of based on the ministry of the Word and people hearing God's Word and responding to it. But the second, especially with figures like this guy Charles Finney, he basically, out of the Industrial Revolution, said people are basically like machines.

134. 27:12

     Matt Greiner

     Hmm.

135. 27:12

     CALEB Wait

     And if you amp them up enough in the right way, they will respond. They will come down to the altar call, and you can program that in them by yelling enough, by having the right pitch, by getting them into their emotions in a mechanical way. They could be manipulated. And I think that has been embedded in evangelical culture for a very long time.

136. 27:33

     Matt Greiner

     Yeah.

137. 27:34

     CALEB Wait

     So I think when you grow up and you're a youth group kid full of zeal, what is the picture of the archetype Christian? The most mature spiritual life, where it's the person— you're most zealous, you're most on fire, you're most denouncing sinful things and what have you.

138. 27:57

     Matt Greiner

     Yeah, true.

139. 27:58

     CALEB Wait

     But I think that burns you out over a long time. But in the New Testament, what you see is what theologians would call a focus on the external ministry of the church and the ordinary means of grace, meaning, what does the faithful Christian life look like? 1 Thessalonians 4 says, live a quiet life and work with your hands. And to attend— in Hebrews it says, don't forsake the gathering of the assembly, of the church. Come receive God's Word. I mean, the church service used to be called the divine service, not because it was a place where we didn't come to serve God, but where God called us to serve us.

140. 28:36

     Matt Greiner

     Hmm.

141. 28:37

     CALEB Wait

     He's divinely serving us. He's giving us his Word. He's giving us an absolution. You're hearing the forgiveness of your sins. You're taking and eating his body and blood and being reminded of his promises to you. And that just leads to a more rested, sustainable faith. And I think if your picture of the Christian life is, I don't need the church, I can do this as a maverick, me and the Bible, my zeal, my passion— when you tour the world and see the world and how big it is, man, I don't know, I think you get burned out. I think you get humbled.

142. CALEB Wait

     [~29:13] MATT GREINER - Mm-hmm.

143. 29:14

     CALEB Wait

     And I think you just become kind of like, I don't know, what's the point of all this anyway? So anyway, those are some thoughts there.

144. 29:21

     Matt Greiner

     Very well said.

145. 29:23

     CALEB Wait

     So as you have toured, has there been other bands, bandmates from other bands, who've been like, why? Why are you a Christian? Why are you here playing in this place if you believe those things? What are those conversations like?

146. 29:45

     Matt Greiner

     Back to a point you just made before this. Do you remember when you go on a youth retreat and you'd come home and you would just be so—

147. 29:53

     CALEB Wait

     The mountaintop experience.

148. 29:54

     Matt Greiner

     Yeah, the mountaintop.

149. 29:55

     CALEB Wait

     Oh yeah.

150. 29:55

     Matt Greiner

     I remember my brother came home, and I remember someone in our family talked him down, like, ah, you feel that way right now, but just give it a couple of days. Stuck with me because I had that experience too, but you won't live there. And I think in my experience being in this band, you have highs and you have lows. You have good years and you have really rough years, and you just got to keep going. Don't give up.

151. Matt Greiner

     Because I've had years on tour where I'm calling a buddy at home. I used to call this guy Chad Johnson. He worked at Solid State/Tooth & Nail. He signed Underoath back in the day. Then he started Come & Live!. Now he's got Furnace Fest. And he was just my go-to guy. Like, Chad, I think I'm done with the band. I want to come up— like, I'm done. And he would just keep me in the fight. And I say fight—

152. 30:46

     CALEB Wait

     Sure.

153. 30:46

     Matt Greiner

     —he would just keep me on the road, because I was going through this process of growing up and figuring out that it's okay to be on a bus with people who disagree with you about your faith. There's so much that you can find in common with each other, and try not to dwell on this thing that's frustrating to you. Instead, work through it and use it and work on yourself.

154. Matt Greiner

     And so I think that mountaintop thing— if you're watching this and you're listening to this and you are in a place where you're on a high, awesome. And try to internalize and memorize what it's like to have that kind of faith and joy, because life is hard and there will be times when you feel like you lose some of that, and you need to remember what it was like. And Dr. Keller used to talk about this too. The Bible gives us this amazing picture of— if you're prideful, the Word brings us to a place of humility. And if you're humbled and low, the Bible picks you up. That's the amazing— that's so true about Christianity. It gives us what we need. Jesus is the perfect counselor.

155. Matt Greiner

     [~31:55] CALEB Wait - Yeah.

156. Matt Greiner

     [~31:56] MATT GREINER - So regardless of what phase of life you're in, Jesus will meet you there. That has been so true in my time with this band. I'm so glad I didn't quit the band 15 years ago. And I was like, ah, I think I'm gonna go back and just farm full-time. And then I threw straw bales around— $5, $10, $15. And I was like, it's really hard to make $100. The band's a great business. Fast forward years, I'm in a tough place and I'm kind of there again. I think I'm done. Stick with it. Now I'm at a place where it's like, wow, man, God has the perfect picture in mind for my life. And I trust him with it, regardless of how it feels today. Just keep going.

157. 32:36

     CALEB Wait

     Have you been— [crosstalk]

158. 32:37

     Matt Greiner

     This is fun. I don't get to talk like this backstage.

159. 32:39

     CALEB Wait

     I'm enjoying it.

160. 32:40

     Matt Greiner

     Usually it's like, what do you guys want to get for post-show food? And—

161. 32:44

     CALEB Wait

     In-N-Out again in California? Yeah.

162. 32:47

     Matt Greiner

     And, you screwed up that part in “Behemoth,” you know.

163. 32:49

     CALEB Wait

     Oh gosh. Killer song, by the way.

164. 32:52

     Matt Greiner

     Oh, thank you. Hopefully we don't screw it up tonight.

165. 32:55

     CALEB Wait

     I'll let you know.

166. 32:56

     Matt Greiner

     Yeah. We're cutting the interview if you do.

167. 32:59

     CALEB Wait

     You've been, again, doing this for 20 years. There's plenty of stories of bands who've done this that long or not as long, but there's no really public drama with you guys. You guys seemingly lead with integrity, and you've had the same lineup for 20 years. How do you guys do that?

168. 33:23

     Matt Greiner

     Yeah, how do you stay alive and not kill each other?

169. 33:26

     CALEB Wait

     Yeah.

170. 33:27

     Matt Greiner

     That is also a great question. There's a funny thing that happens. We're on tour, I'll be like, oh my gosh, I need to get home and be with my brothers on the farm or my friends. They're so much easier to be around. And then I'll go home and be like, thank God I am not in a band with any of my brothers or my best friends. The guys I'm in a band with— it's a miracle that we found each other, because we work together so well, and we're all different and have just different takes on stuff. But I think it takes that perspective for me to remember that— sub this person out for this other person that you like a lot at home, and it'd be a nightmare to deal with.

171. 34:13

     CALEB Wait

     Well, yeah.

172. 34:14

     Matt Greiner

     It takes the right kind of person to be humble and driven and talented and kind to fans and outgoing and be able to live on a bus for four months out of the year. It's a really special type of person. We work through our difficulties, our challenges, our differences, and our communication has gotten a lot better in the last couple years.

173. Matt Greiner

     [~34:38] CALEB Wait - Yeah.

174. Matt Greiner

     [~34:39] MATT GREINER - Personally, I think God's had a plan for this band, and he works through us and through this band in a way that just— it makes sense when you look at it. Because how in the world could it be that 23 years later we're still cruising and we still like each other? I would argue we're in a better place than we've ever been.

175. 35:02

     CALEB Wait

     Yeah.

176. 35:03

     Matt Greiner

     A couple nights ago, we got off stage in San Antonio, had an awesome show there, and we were in the back lounge of the bus, and we're like, we are in a good spot. We're playing together well, and people are showing up, and we like each other, and we're having fun out here.

177. 35:19

     CALEB Wait

     Awesome.

178. 35:20

     Matt Greiner

     So my personal note on this is that the guys I'm in a band with are very impressive people who differ from me in a lot of ways. But thank God they're the guys in my band and I get to be in a band with and not other people that I think, oh man, it'd be so great if it was—

179. Matt Greiner

     [~35:37] CALEB Wait - Yeah, good. [crosstalk]

180. 35:38

     Matt Greiner

     It's not the case.

181. 35:41

     CALEB Wait

     I'm gonna turn over the last question to our mutual friend Justin Holcomb, 'cause he texted me a video.

182. 35:47

     Matt Greiner

     Oh, amazing.

183. 35:48

     CALEB Wait

     —question that he wants to ask you guys here. So I'm gonna have you watch it, and then you can respond to Justin.

184. 35:59

     Matt Greiner

     Hi, Holcomb. If you're watching this interview, you're the man.

185. 36:05

     Matt Greiner

     JUSTIN HOLCOMB (via video) - Got a question. Just knowing your music, being at your shows, and just listening to you when I'm out in my backyard, back porch, driving, or just chilling— you guys have lots of songs about faith, suffering, darkness, doubt, pain, hope, resilience, and healing. And what I've always admired about your work is that you don't resolve suffering and pain simplistically or cheaply. First, why is that important to you? You stare suffering and pain in the face. You name it, you acknowledge it, but then you don't resolve it simplistically. And how does the idea of hope or mercy that results in perseverance and resilience— or maybe there's another word. I mean, what's— if it's not hope and mercy and resilience, perseverance, how does that inform the message of many of your songs?

186. 37:02

     Matt Greiner

     Hmm. Wow. It's a good man right there.

187. 37:07

     CALEB Wait

     That's right.

188. 37:07

     Matt Greiner

     Well, back in 2012, I lost $37,000 in a Ponzi scheme. And I remember just obviously being devastated by this. And so I was in Stuttgart, Germany, and I didn't know what to do with this feeling. And I climbed a hill, went on a hike, and I wrote this lyric for a song called “Provision”— “Provisions,” plural. And the bridge of this song says, “I'm just as much the problem as the man behind bars. He did with his business what I do in my heart. I'm just as much the problem as the man behind bars. He did with his business what I do in my heart.”

189. Matt Greiner

     I find the answers to problems, to challenges, to life's pain and suffering by writing about it, by writing lyrics about it. And usually, in a case like this with “Provisions,” I'll talk to fans about it, and they'll be able to relate to the fact that, man, I thought this other person was horrible, but I see the same thing in myself.

190. 38:11

     CALEB Wait

     Mm-hmm.

191. 38:12

     Matt Greiner

     And ultimately, he talked about mercy, man. We all need mercy. And I can look at this guy and say, what a horrible human being, stealing all this money from me. And what do I do in my heart that is awful? It's just not criminal. So I think the common denominator in our band is that we all understand life is tough. It's challenging, and it's sad and difficult at times. And that, I think, is where we connect the most with our fans.

192. 38:44

     CALEB Wait

     Hmm.

193. 38:45

     Matt Greiner

     Because we're able to be real about the fact that, man, this is tough. And in the case of myself, I know that my Savior walks with me through it personally. I knew this back in 2017–18, going through a really tough time and being out here on the road. I needed him. And to the extent that you have gone through something difficult or seen a dark place and experienced it, the inverse is true: that when you find light and Jesus and hope, it just is that much more meaningful. It's that much more of a stark difference.

194. 39:22

     CALEB Wait

     Yeah.

195. 39:22

     Matt Greiner

     So our lyrics are relatable, and they're ambiguous enough that you can take something from it, but ultimately they're real. And in the case of a Christian, they land you in a place where, man, Jesus has never turned his back on you.

196. 39:39

     CALEB Wait

     Matt Greiner, thank you so much for being here. What is the name of the new album coming out, so that folks can get it?

197. 39:47

     Matt Greiner

     New album is called Season of Surrender, and we have three songs out: “Behemoth,” “Nameless,” and “Sonic Salvation.” And we're playing two on this tour.

198. 39:56

     CALEB Wait

     Awesome. And it comes out in May?

199. 39:58

     Matt Greiner

     It comes out in June.

200. 39:58

     CALEB Wait

     June? Yes. All right.

201. 40:00

     Matt Greiner

     Thank you for having me. This has been really good for me.

202. Matt Greiner

     [~40:02] CALEB Wait - Absolutely. Thank you for being here. You've been very generous with your time.

203. 40:05

     Matt Greiner

     Of course. Absolutely. Thank you to the team. And shout out to Dr. Keller, someone who had a huge impact on me in my life, and I'm really grateful that I found him, and I'm so stoked that you guys got to interview him.

204. 40:22

     CALEB Wait

     Yeah, well, thank you. Thanks, man.

205. 40:24

     Matt Greiner

     Absolutely. Thank you.