The Church and the West’s Meaning Crisis | Glen Scrivener and Michael Horton

This transcript has been lightly edited from an automated transcription for clarity and readability. While we've worked to preserve each speaker's words faithfully, errors may remain.

1. 00:00

   Michael Horton

   We don't want to live in the Village Green at the end of the day. We can all leave and return to our houses of worship, but our goal is to encourage conversational theology in the Village Green where we can rub shoulders with Christians from different traditions and expressions.

2. 00:21

   Glen Scrivener

   And so our men's ministry is basically our evangelistic ministry now.

3. 00:25

   Michael Horton

   Wow.

4. 00:25

   Glen Scrivener

   And it's just inherited a whole bunch of people with, with some, you know, some wacky Jungian views of Scripture and things that they've inherited from Peterson and some other ideas. And so just walking with them through the thorny issues of life is basically how evangelism and discipleship is happening, and it's happening all at once, which I don't think is unhealthy. I've often been saying that I think evangelism is pastoring non-Christians and pastoral care is evangelizing Christians.

5. 00:57

   Michael Horton

   That's good.

6. 00:58

   Glen Scrivener

   And in our moment right now, we're getting the chance to kind of do both with people who are, yeah, they're jumping into the boat and they have no idea what it's all about, but it's a glorious mess.

7. 01:14

   Michael Horton

   Glenn Scrivener is an ordained Church of England minister and evangelist who writes, speaks, produces online media. He directs the evangelistic ministry Speak Life. Glen, it's wonderful to be with you today. I've watched your presentations on many occasions and have really been impressed not only with your background knowledge of culture and thought, but your ability to really untangle cultural knots, and appreciate your work very much.

8. 01:45

   Glen Scrivener

   Oh, well, thank you so much, Dr. Horton. The White Horse Inn got me through seminary, so thank you so much.

9. 01:51

   Michael Horton

   Sure. First of all, Glen, could you talk about low-tide evangelicalism? Why in the 2020s is it potentially easier to talk to modern people about spirituality and invite them to a Christian church? A lot of people, I think, just assume that it's getting harder and harder. You actually think it's a good time for evangelism. From your experience, why do you think that's so?

10. 02:20

    Glen Scrivener

    It might not be the same all over the world. It's probably not the same even in Scotland as it is in England. It's not quite the same in Australia where I'm from. I've been living in England for the last 20-something years. So it might just be an English phenomenon, but it was the English poet Matthew Arnold who wrote about the “Sea of Faith” and its long melancholy withdrawing roar back in 1851. And he thought that the Sea of Faith was out even though the census that year put churchgoing in the UK at its highest level in history. That was the high watermark actually of churchgoing. in England. 50% of England was in church in 1851, and yet he felt that the tide was going out. How much further is the tide out now where a 10th of that proportion are in church on a Sunday? But there are certain things that low tide enables. I think low tide helps you to see what was underneath all along. I think with institutional Christianity on the wane, I think a lot of people start to see that what they had taken for granted as natural and obvious and universal and self-evident in terms of human rights and human dignity and equality, oh, it turns out that with the waning of Christian influence, those kind of natural Nietzschean kind of instincts come back with a vengeance and people start to see at low tide what what lay underneath the whole time, and that might make them flee to the rock of Christ. I think also at low tide, you start to see what the shaping influence of the sea had always been. And in a sense, I think Tom Holland's book Dominion, which charts the Christianization of the West over the last 2,000 years, in a sense, that book would not have made a splash if it was written in 1999. The fact that it was written 20 years later in 2019, when a lot of institutional and cultural power of the church was lost in the West, I think people started to see that that thesis was indeed correct, as opposed to thinking that it was kind of, we're at the end of history and Western liberal democracies have won. You can think that when the tide is higher. When tide is low, you start to recognize the good that Christianity has done. And then I think at low tides, the pathways to an intentional faith start to suggest themselves to you. I think you can bob along at high tide and find yourself in church. You're not going to simply find yourself in church at low tide, but there are lots of people who are intentionally wanting to make the pilgrimage back to faith and they start to ask those questions about intentionally owning the faith for themselves. So in all those ways, there are—I'm not saying it's easy, but I am saying there are opportunities at low tide.

11. 05:30

    Michael Horton

    We had this period of rebellion. First of all, long rebellion. You mentioned Nietzsche, but a long rebellion before and after, before and since. And certainly many academics who are middle-aged and older were rebelling very much against conservative culture and, and in a lot of cases, kind of conservative Christianity they may have been raised in, at least in the United States. And now you have a generation of people who really have no beef with Christianity. They just have little connection.

12. 06:06

    Glen Scrivener

    Right.

13. 06:07

    Michael Horton

    And they're asking questions and there's residual Christianity in the air. Do you think that that's part of it too, that there's just the Woodstock rebellion is kind of waning?

14. 06:21

    Glen Scrivener

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They haven't had beef with the church and that beef is not within living memory. I think gay marriage on either side of the Atlantic kind of came through round about the same time as it was sort of 2015 here in the UK. I think the church, as weak as we are in the UK, made some sort of stand for biblical marriage and that sort of thing. But it was sort of the church standing up against this massive tide going in the opposite direction. And we were sort of saying, no, don't go this way. And the church sort of blasts on past. And in a sense, we're what, nine years after that? And I think the whole culture has sort of forgotten that in a sense. And I think the posture now of the church is we are very much on the fringes of things. We're not hegemonic. We are not the big bad authority that anybody can shake their fist at anymore. And so there's a real leveling of the playing field. The church are no longer the bad guys. We're no longer in charge of things. We can no longer be blamed for the things that go wrong. And the scandals that used to be considered to be a uniquely Christian thing are just obviously not a Christian thing anymore. So sexual abuse used to be the sort of thing that you would first of all associate with the Roman Catholic Church and the Archdiocese of Boston. And it was that located thing about those religious people who are not us. And then the UK has just had scandal after scandal, many of them involving the BBC, which is just a very sacred institution in the UK. The NHS, one of the largest BBC stars of yesteryear, Jimmy Savile, was a quite egregious, astonishingly wicked pedophile who used the NHS as well as his hunting ground. And you just get to see, oh, maybe scandals are human things rather than Christian things. And actually, the retreat of the church to the margins makes you see that what we're dealing with when we're dealing with church scandals, as egregious as they are and as horrific as they are, we're not dealing with a specifically religious problem. We're dealing with a universally human problem. And it also gives the church the opportunity to—now that we're on the margins of things and we're not sort of saying, wait, no, don't go that way, we're sort of—we're out here as an outpost of difference. And when the sexual revolution and other modern madness kind of collapses in on itself, we are basically the ones who are saying, we're a place of refuge. If you want to be a refugee from that madness, we'll take all comers. And I think at that stage, we occupy a different cultural space at the moment.

15. 09:30

    Michael Horton

    I think you know better than I—1972, the last Crown prosecution on the charge of blasphemy was against the Monty Python crew for Life of Brian.

16. 09:44

    Glen Scrivener

    Right.

17. 09:45

    Michael Horton

    And after that, I think it was the Archbishop of Canterbury who wanted to get rid of the blasphemy law, anti-blasphemy law.

18. 09:52

    Glen Scrivener

    Right.

19. 09:52

    Michael Horton

    And so just look at today, What little teeth, even if the church wanted to have a blasphemy law in place, it's sort of laughable in our society today. Doesn't Christianity do better on the margins when it doesn't have power? It's not in power culturally?

20. 10:14

    Glen Scrivener

    As you introduced me, you introduced me as a Church of England minister. And so I, you know, I'm not an Anabaptist and I'm not sort of I'm not from that tradition. I don't mind being part of a church that has all sorts of cultural power, very soft power in the UK, but it does have a place in British society for better and for worse. So it is very interesting that in the UK and certainly in England, every square inch of the country is divided into the parish system and we will take care of our little patch. And if you are in trouble and you want to knock on the vicarage door at two in the morning, the vicar is there. And even if you want to get your children baptized, the vicar will have a conversation with you. And if they're an evangelical, then they will dissuade you from making yourself a hypocrite by trying to profess a faith in front of people that you don't actually possess. But there is an expectation that we will baptize your children, we will marry you in our pretty churches, and you come and you can have a lovely Christmas carols concert in December. And I think there are good things about that. And in the meaning crisis that's happening and at low tide, the sort of church that people in England will return to if they have some kind of cultural memory is my kind of church. They will come to an Anglican church and they will sit and it's much easier to sit on the fringe of an Anglican church because we're not trying to get you into membership very quickly and that sort of thing. We don't have membership in that sense. So there are great benefits to being that kind of cultural influence at the center of society. But then, as I said, I'm Australian and I grew up in the Anglican Church in Australia, which is not the national church and it doesn't have that kind of cultural position or influence. And actually, the church is a lot stronger in Australia than it is in England. The sneer that Australian culture wears towards Christians is a lot more evident. It's harder to be a Christian in Australia, and the church is stronger. So I guess your thesis might play out if we sort of compare Australia and England, where there is cultural power, very soft power to the Church of England. We are the background music, which is great because people kind of know where to go if they have spiritual problems and they might find themselves in our churches. But what do you do with background music? You tune it out.

21. 13:03

    Michael Horton

    Yeah.

22. 13:03

    Glen Scrivener

    Whereas in Australia, there’s a much more robust, distinctive witness to the church, and far more, a higher proportion of Australians will find themselves in church on a Sunday morning. So I think if you were to run that experiment about whether we do better at the margins or at the center, you might be right. But I wouldn’t rule out the great benefits to having that cultural power.

23. 13:29

    Michael Horton

    Sure, sure. And in the States, if I could speak broadly, I think when evangelicals do reach for power—want to kind of turn the dial back and go back to the days when it was the “Year of the Evangelical” on Time magazine's cover. Whenever they do, whether it's political or cultural, social, that's when we lose a lot of young people. You know, people peel off because they don't sense that, oh, this is the place where I go to get my questions answered. This is the place I go to for meaning, purpose, the biggest questions of life. This is where I go to belong to the body of Christ, but rather this is sort of home base for something else.

24. 14:24

    Glen Scrivener

    Right.

25. 14:25

    Michael Horton

    And of course, you don't have that as much as we do.

26. 14:29

    Glen Scrivener

    And that's interesting, like across the Atlantic, the way that ideas of cultural Christianity and even something like Christian nationalism, the way that gets heard, I think, in a UK setting as opposed to a US setting is quite different. I think issues of race come right to the fore, I think, in the US in ways that in the UK—in the UK, it's much more straightforward to answer the question, are we a Christian country? Did you watch the King's coronation? Were you paying attention to this?

27. 15:04

    Michael Horton

    It doesn't get more religious than that.

28. 15:07

    Glen Scrivener

    In Westminster Abbey, the Archbishop of Canterbury is anointing him, anointing him, right, in the most profoundly Christian service that you could ever witness. And here I'm in the Church of England, he's my line manager, right? The King is my line manager. So those whole issues of like, what is a Christian nation? Because of our different histories, it's a very different thing, I think, in the UK.

29. 15:40

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30. 16:35

    Michael Horton

    So if people in the West are becoming interested in church again through figures like Jordan Peterson and others, they're at least beginning to ask sort of meaning-type questions. Maybe they've heard him talk about Genesis. And how should the church think about maturing these people in the faith? Because clearly, you know, you wouldn't be on the same page with Jordan Peterson theologically. To what extent is this being driven by social media algorithms?

31. 17:08

    Glen Scrivener

    There's definitely that. And yet, did you see on social media recently there was a little infographic about how couples met? And it went back to 1934. And from 1934 to 2024, the percentage of people who met because they were friends, and then the percentage of people who met at church, the percentage of people who met in the workplace, through family. And of course, the video runs until you get into the 1980s, and suddenly at the bottom of the pile is this thing called the internet. And throughout the '80s, it sort of grows and grows, and it sort of leaps over the fifth place and the fourth place and the third place, and you get into the 2000s. And then all of a sudden, it sort of overtakes everything else. And by the time you get to 2024, it's like 58%, I think, of couples met online absolutely dwarfs number two, which is friends. So it's like three or four times the percentage meet online. And so it's very easy to poo-poo online existence as though that means it's the opposite of physical, in-person, embodied relationships. Clearly, in the case of meeting your significant other, it can lead to actual real-world consequences and actual embodied relationships. And so for all the dangers of online and for all that the algorithm is both leading audiences and leading influencers down certain trails, and that is a very thorny issue to navigate, nevertheless, everyone is living an online and an offline life.

32. 18:54

    Michael Horton

    Yeah.

33. 18:55

    Glen Scrivener

    And the number one way that people will check your church out is absolutely online. Certainly, my experience is much more in the UK, but certainly the new Christians that I'm meeting and the people that are showing up in church to check things out, they have probably listened to the sermons online for six months before they ever show up in church. That's the shopfront window. Two weeks ago in my home church, I'm on the south coast in England, and this guy, he's a resident doctor, he's like a junior doctor, recently qualified. He just said, I'm here in church. I grew up as an atheist. I said, oh, so why are you now in church? He said, I listen to this podcast. You're like, oh, which podcast? And he looks over both shoulders. Have you heard of Jordan Peterson? I was like, yeah, I've heard of Jordan Peterson. Fascinatingly, the guy to my right, I start talking to, and he's been listening to Peterson and others, and he's in church.

34. 19:54

    Michael Horton

    Wow.

35. 19:54

    Glen Scrivener

    About two months earlier than that, another Jordan Peterson fan, he has just shown up in church. He basically said, I recognized through the Genesis lectures that there's wisdom there that I'd never considered before, so I ordered a Bible from Amazon. I was like, well, which translation? And he was like, the old one. I was like, do you mean King James? He's like, yeah, that's the one. I was like, where did you start? He was like, Genesis. I'm like, duh, obviously. And it turns out in our men's group, we've got a guy who's like a TikTok influencer with 100,000 viewers. I had no idea he was even on TikTok. And he's kind of in the ecosystem that orbits around Jordan Peterson and that sort of thing. And what I think is happening is that there are a lot of such fish that are jumping into the boat, and getting them to church is not the difficulty. Discipling them once they're there really is. And so our men's ministry is basically our evangelistic ministry now.

36. 20:59

    Michael Horton

    Wow.

37. 20:59

    Glen Scrivener

    And it's just, we've just inherited a whole bunch of people with some, you know, some wacky Jungian views of Scripture and things that they've inherited from Peterson and some other ideas. And so just walking with them through the thorny issues of life is basically how evangelism and discipleship is happening, and it's happening all at once, which I don't think is unhealthy. I've often been saying that I think evangelism is pastoring non-Christians and pastoral care is evangelizing Christians.

38. 21:32

    Michael Horton

    That's good.

39. 21:33

    Glen Scrivener

    And in our moment right now, we're getting the chance to kind of do both with people who are jumping into the boat and they have no idea what it's all about, but it's a glorious mess.

40. 21:45

    Michael Horton

    Yeah. It's fascinating to me how we're living at a time when, on the one hand, it's a bit jolting for those of us who have sort of been around and have been nurtured in fairly confessional churches where the sheep are taken well, they're well cared for, to think that there are so many people out there. Don't worry, you don't have to—we're not going to, you know, necessarily go passing out tracts door to door. This is going to be a slow process, but we want to be a place where people can come and if they're looking for meaning, like the disciples in the Gospels, you know, they're following Jesus before they get—

41. 22:43

    Glen Scrivener

    Right.

42. 22:44

    Michael Horton

    Anything.

43. 22:44

    Glen Scrivener

    Right.

44. 22:45

    Michael Horton

    So how do we become better listeners, not just talkers, but better listeners? And practically speaking, Glen, for a pastor who has some facility with, you know, reading stuff aside from Bible commentaries, what if they got on social media and, you know, people just showed up because, I mean, you've got something unique. You're really good at it and you have a lot of viewers. So it stands to reason that you would have a lot of those people coming that maybe others wouldn't. But how can the rest of us do that better, at least, than we're doing?

45. 23:30

    Glen Scrivener

    Well, all those examples I gave about my local church, none of them knew me. They just showed up to All Souls Eastbourne because that was their local church and because that was their Anglican church. And that's kind of how things roll in England. So none of them came to my church because they knew me. They all came to church because they knew Jordan Peterson, and they had no idea I would even have heard of Jordan Peterson.

46. 23:51

    Michael Horton

    Interesting.

47. 23:53

    Glen Scrivener

    So, oh, it's a thing. It's not just at my church. I'm an evangelist, so I go around a bunch of different churches, and I'm meeting these guys everywhere.

48. 24:04

    Michael Horton

    My own kids. Yeah, my own kids.

49. 24:06

    Glen Scrivener

    Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there are a whole bunch of people leapfrogging Jordan Peterson into the kingdom. It's fascinating.

50. 24:13

    Michael Horton

    It is, especially because if we're going to focus on Jordan Peterson, he's an excellent communicator. He's obviously knowledgeable about many things. But it seems to me, and this touches on the whole question of re-enchantment, it seems to me that there are a lot of people who are—that I meet at least—who are on the one hand very open to talking about theological issues, religious issues, spiritual issues, that who weren't before but are kind of open to that now. And people like Jordan Peterson help. But the downside is that I get the impression that Jordan Peterson kind of trends toward Gnosticism, a kind of his own remedy. And I think a lot of people like Jordan Peterson for what he's against, but for what he's for, I kind of blanch. If that's what re-enchantment is, or the scads of N-O-N-E-S, nones, who are leaving organized religion for a kind of New Age spirituality, magic, even witchcraft. It doesn't seem that atheism is our problem, but kind of spiritualism.

51. 25:45

    Glen Scrivener

    Yeah, yeah. I think that one of the things that I do with anyone who has sort of followed Jordan Peterson for any length of time is I take them to the parable of the two sons, Luke chapter 15, known as the prodigal son. And I basically say, look, Jordan Peterson is great at helping you in the pigsty. You've gone after hedonistic freedom. You've gone after pure autonomy. And In order to be free, you've gotten lost and you're in a meaning crisis and you're in the pigsty. And a lot of the 12 Rules For Life and then 12 More Rules For Life is basically like that kid's kind of sorry spiel that he practices on the way back to the father. And he's, “I've sinned against heaven and against you.

52. Glen Scrivener

    I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired men.”

53. 26:44

    Glen Scrivener

    (Michael Horton” — All law, yeah.

54. 26:46

    Glen Scrivener

    All law. Yeah. Pigsty repents, right? And I try and get them to see, look, he's got the three things he wants to say to his dad. I've sinned before heaven, before you. I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your slaves, right? And of course, when the father embraces him, that's the one thing he doesn't let the son say, right? I've sinned before heaven, before you. I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. “Quick,” says the father, “bring the best robe, put it on him, put a ring on his finger, sandals on his feet, kill the fatted calf. My son was lost and he's found.” And what the younger son had intended was to become an older son, right? He wanted to trade one kind of slavery for a different kind of slavery. And the great danger of a Petersonian kind of system is, as Paul VanderKlay, a great YouTuber who speaks into this space a lot, he's a Christian Reformed Church pastor up in Sacramento, California, he says Peterson has an Augustinian anthropology, but then a Pelagian soteriology. So it's kind of the worst of all worlds, right? He's very good at convincing you that you could have been a Nazi guard. because that is the shadow side within you. He's very good at laying that on you. And then he says, now take up your cross and try to march up the hill.

55. 28:15

    Michael Horton

    Here are the 15 things.

56. 28:17

    Glen Scrivener

    Yeah, right. Where are we going, Jordan? I don't know, but just try. And what I find transformative when I sort of lay that out with some very Christian-curious Jordan Peterson fans is that they can then see that what Jesus wants is not for you to stop being, you know, don't be into chaos, try and get a bit more order in your life, right? The order and chaos duality is just huge in Peterson. But both order and chaos are transcended by grace, right? The order and chaos are flip sides of the law, right? You could be lawless or like law-bound. That's kind of order and chaos, like the grace of the gospel is something else.

57. 29:02

    Michael Horton

    Yeah.

58. 29:03

    Glen Scrivener

    And it is being embraced by this man who welcomes sinners and eats with them. And then I get them to imagine what would it be like the next morning for that prodigal son. You know, he wakes up and he's in his old room and he's still stinking of pig, but oh my goodness, I've got the robe around me. And he sort of pads into the kitchen and dad's cooking some eggs and the son says, oh, dad, look, once again, I'm just so sorry. And the father says, it's done. It's done. And then as they sit down to their eggs, you know, the father says, what do you want to do today? And the son says, I don't know, Dad, what do you want to do today? And I reckon that day, the youngest son would work in his father's household, like, more studiously and more productively than he'd ever worked in his entire life.

59. 29:50

    Michael Horton

    Yeah.

60. 29:51

    Glen Scrivener

    As an embraced son and not as the slave that he was trying to make himself. And when people get that, I think Peterson can at least help them to get some distance off from the father's house. But what they need to hear is the father's call. I will not allow you to be a slave with 12 more rules for life. Here, we're celebrating you. And then out of that, then you can put those laws into work. Then you can do the 12 rules for life. Then you can tidy your room and all that other—be more lobster or whatever. Then you can do all that stuff.

61. 30:25

    Michael Horton

    From acceptance.

62. 30:27

    Glen Scrivener

    From acceptance. Yeah, it's transformative, isn't it?

63. 30:29

    Michael Horton

    I benefited also from Tom Holland, as you certainly have. You guys are friends—and appreciated his research and clarity in making the argument for, you know, just showing people the, the depth and breadth of Christian influence throughout history on politics and economics, on philosophy, on women's rights, on all sorts of things, and not looking at—not forgetting the negative things that have happened as well. Now it seems that there are a lot of people who are rejecting a lot of those values. And even, you know, Christianity can't win for losing. Either Christianity is the reason for ecological disaster And suppression of women and for slavery and all of the grievances of the past. Or I'm finding a growing number of people who actually, in kind of Nietzsche's vein, are blaming Christianity for—

64. 31:41

    Glen Scrivener

    Right.

65. 31:42

    Michael Horton

    Supporting the weak and the suffering.

66. 31:44

    Glen Scrivener

    Yeah. Weakness and wokeness.

67. 31:46

    Michael Horton

    Yeah, right. Yeah. Do you find that sort of paradox in people's view of Christianity?

68. 31:55

    Glen Scrivener

    Yeah. And I think that's sort of two of the things that you see at low tide. You see what's underneath. And I think the Andrew Tates of the world—

69. 32:06

    Michael Horton

    That's underneath.

70. 32:07

    Glen Scrivener

    Is what's underneath, isn't it? It is. That's just sort of Nietzschean will to power, isn't it? And scary as it is, it's sort of been given much more of an airing recently. And yep, that is scary, but it also awakens people to what is underneath. But you also see what we are missing without it. And interestingly, I asked Tom Holland a couple of years ago now, what do you think is the future? You've done us a great service in telling us the last 2.5 millennia of history. Put your prophecy goggles on. What do you think is happening in the future? And he said it could go in three different directions. He said, maybe we just go into progressive liberationism, ditching all Christian kind of metaphysical assumptions. You just say Christianity got us this far, but we don't need it anymore. Thank you very much. The blaster rockets, we're going to detach from the main shuttle and we're just going to blast off into oblivion without Christianity. And maybe that's true. Maybe we don't need Christian presuppositions, says Tom Holland. That's not ultimately the option he goes for, but there's future number one. Future number two is a real lashback against the woke, right? That's what the anti-woke want to call them anyway. And so you get the real kind of reassertion of nature and power and the strong. And then possibly the third option, and this is the option that Tom Holland is trying to strengthen and trying to join, is—and maybe all of this will lead us back to our origins. And when he said that at the time, and as I've been contemplating it ever since, I've been thinking, yeah, it's going to be all three, isn't it? I think it's—

71. 34:15

    Michael Horton

    Yeah.

72. 34:16

    Glen Scrivener

    And we're seeing all three at once. It's a mess.

73. 34:18

    Michael Horton

    Yeah, we see it certainly on the stage, public stage in the United States these days. Well, Glen, you've got—there are so many other questions I'd like to ask you, and maybe we'll have another opportunity to do it, but you've really helped us reflect more deeply on not only how we talk to non-Christians, but how we live in the culture ourselves as people who should love our neighbors and care about their destiny. And want them to meet the Son who's loved us so much and the Father who's welcomed us home. So thanks for your time.

74. 34:59

    Glen Scrivener

    Hey, thank you so much for having me.

75. 35:05

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