Michael Horton is joined by James Wood, David VanDrunen, and Adriel Sanchez for a roundtable discussion on postliberalism, the church’s role in politics, and whether nations share the responsibility of guiding their citizens toward their highest spiritual good.
Postliberalism, America, and the Church: Michael Horton, James Wood, and David VanDrunen
1 hr 1 min
In this Episode
- James Wood outlines the core post-liberal critiques of classical liberalism — its account of freedom, its treatment of religion as optional, and its view of the church as a mere “voluntary society.”
- David VanDrunen explains the classical Reformed “two kingdoms” doctrine and argues that a classical-liberal political order is the application of it most consistent with his commitments, while stressing that this is a considered application rather than the doctrine itself.
- The panel debates how far the state may go in “promoting the good,” including whether the first table of the Ten Commandments (duties toward God) can be enforced the way the second table can.
- Michael Horton and James Wood weigh the historical risks of church-state coordination — citing Servetus, James Madison, and the ways Christendom has corrupted the church when allied too closely with civil power.
- The conversation closes on a point of concord: the civil magistrate can promote only a “penultimate” good, and Christians are called to persuade rather than coerce, using both natural law and public witness.
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This transcript has been lightly edited from an automated transcription for clarity and readability. While we've worked to preserve each speaker's words faithfully, errors may remain.
think it's also really important if we're talking about issues of religious liberty and establishment and all the kinds of variations of those questions that we've been talking about, that the natural law does reveal that we should worship the true God and not be idolaters. But it doesn't—we've always thought as Christians that natural revelation itself doesn't reveal the Trinity. It doesn't reveal the atonement. It doesn't reveal justification by faith alone. Doesn't reveal what the true sacraments are. And it doesn't reveal the name of God. And so if we are really thinking about a civil magistrate operating under the natural law, then the civil magistrate doesn't have the sort of theological information in order to be making any kind of detailed judgments about what exactly is heresy, what exactly is blasphemy, what exactly is the true church. I mean, how even distinguish between Roman Catholics or Lutherans or Reformed on the basis of natural revelation. I would say it's impossible. So I think some people act as if it's a kind of a simple question. Well, natural law has to do with the first table of the law as well as the second. Therefore, the civil magistrate needs to be, you know—
- 57:44
Pastor Adriel
Enforcing the first table.
- 57:45
David VanDrunen
In the business of somehow enforcing and promoting first table matters. I don't think that follows from that. There’s much more.
- 57:51
Michael Horton
The church still has an obligation to proclaim to the powers the whole law. We would still affirm that, that the church—
- 58:01
David VanDrunen
If the law is in the scriptures, it proclaims the whole scriptures.
- 58:03
Michael Horton
Yeah, exactly. So we do proclaim the scriptures to the—God's commands, but the commands that are summarized in the Ten Commandments. Then Christians in various fields not at the church as an institution, but Christians in their callings, their vocations, might need to persuade people of that good, particularly using natural law arguments. And that is neighbor love. That is—it's not extending Christ's kingdom, his saving reign, but it certainly is a means through which Christ in his providence rules the world and restrains wickedness.
- 58:48
Pastor Adriel
It sounds like we're maybe closing on a note of concord and agreement, at least in terms of maybe like the first table of law is not something that can be enforced in the exact same way that the second table is enforced.
- 59:05
James Wood
I think that's in classical thought too.
- 59:06
Pastor Adriel
Yeah. And so some distinctions that are helpful, maybe not saying it too simplistically. Again, I appreciate all of your guys' time and willingness. Hopefully we can do some more of these down the line. Dr. Wood, appreciate your contribution. And Dr. Horton and Dr. VanDrunen, thank you very much.
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